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2004-10-24 23:12:14 |
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In rock climbing, there are no written rules or judges like in all other sports. Instead, the climbing community creates and circulates the procedures and ethics. Over time, the procedures have been modified and in different subcultures different ethics apply. We thought it could be a good idea to discuss and define good style as of today and also give some amusing examples of violations that is used, in order to receive sponsors, glory and points. There’s no definite line between right and wrong but the fundamental idea says, don't push the border of moral systematically, instead, keep the spirit alive.
1. Onsight (We will discuss other subjects later)
The conception of onsight was much stricter some years ago. Today, you don't have to put up the carabiners by yourselves and if it’s due to safety reasons most climbers even think it’is ok having one or two preclipped. Sometimes you hear about people who systematically downclimb and then after a lunch break or so start with a toprope from the fifth carabiner. This is ridiculous! Although it does not have to be like in competition climbing, where you are smoked once both your feet are lifted from the ground. Most people would probably consider downclimbing a meter in order to tie the shoelaces as acceptable. However, as soon you start to use downclimbing systematically you will ruin your spirit and it's not fair play.
Regarding beta, this has also been facilitated as to make it possible for more climbers to onsight. You can discuss sequences etc with anyone who has no information of the route. You can be a belayer but don’t watch or make your carabiner dummie put up new tickmarks etc. You can have information like - This route is not hard and it suites you perfect. But don't go any further like - It's good to be tall at the crux etc.
What do you think? What have we missed?
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2004-10-25 09:32:54 |
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Hi,
this is a good and criticized argument.
I absolutely agree with the moral "no information before the ascent" and "no pre-clipped carabiners", but I would like to say that today is difficult to do a REAL on-soght ascent, because of the CHALK SIGNS on the rock, that act as a guide for the climber. In great britain they call this ascent 'BETA FLASH', and I think there is a difference between REAL on sight and BETA FLASH.
Another argument that is not considered is the final move. When you are full of stamina and there is the CHAIN in front of you, what do you usually do? Do you catch the chain or do you fall down? I think it's a good rule to clip the final chain by your hands without catch it.
Bye
Dario
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2004-10-25 10:07:28 |
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KOl! NO CHIPING!
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2004-10-25 19:10:24 |
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I think saying that an onsight is only a beta flash because there is chalk on the holds is ridiculous as this would make it impossible to onsight anything at almost every popular crag on the planet! Its only a beta flash if someone one has told you where holds are or given you other key information on how to do the climb ( this would include your friends yelling 'left abit' or a 'little higher' when they see you struggling.) I agree one should clip the chains whilst still holding the rock and also no preclipping. There will of course always be exceptions such as Raindogs at Malham cove (a dyno to the chains is the last move) or other routes where its desirable to preclip the first draw only in the interests of safety. Downclimbing to me seems silly as its the same as yo-yoing or toproping part of the route. Ultimately its your game so the standard of style you apply to yourself is a personal matter. I think we should still draw some distinction between placing the draws yourself and having someone else do it as obviously its easier with the draws in place.
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2004-10-26 11:55:56 |
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Onsight: climber walks up to the route, looks at it, starts 'climbing and reaches the final hold / anchor point, with no falls. This means down-climbing to the ground, resting, re-starting, taking beta of any kind, either during the climb or before, is not allowed.
Onsigh #2: grunt, groan, fall, hang on to anchor, downclimb, fall. Rest lots,
drink coffee, get back, pull on rope 'till last clip, fall, somehow reach anchor,
all with continuous beta/encouragement/jeers from belayer(s), hecklers, all and sundry.
Climber then buys copious amounts of beer and/or local brew of choice to belayer(s), hecklers, all and sundry
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2004-10-26 14:02:09 |
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HAHA! Fanny!
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2004-10-28 05:33:38 |
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I've always thought you had to clip the chains to do a route. and yes this is clipping chains from the rock. One of my routes on my scorecard is redpoint because I traversed across the bottom of the climb in order to gain access to another was I right to do this or could I have claimed the on-sight.
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2004-10-28 06:34:43 |
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If chalk on the holds invalidates an onsight, then surely it is similarly impossible to onsight a trad crack climb, because looking at the crack from the ground, as well as when on the route, tells you MUCH more about the climb than chalked-up holds do on a sport climb. And grabbing the anchor is no different than grabbing any other piece of gear on the route - you clip everything cleanly or start over.
Downclimbing doesn't blow the onsight, but downclimbing to the ground and untie-ing from the rope is obviously not as on-sight as if you didn't downclimb and untie - even though the only onsight of Sphinx Crack, probably the hardest crack onsight ever done, was done in this style, it still waits for an onsight where the climber didn't downclimb and untie, which would obviously be a harder accomplishment.
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2004-10-31 17:19:04 |
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Untie, that's a good suggestion for what surely is an amusing violation when it comes to down-climbing.
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2004-11-02 16:23:31 |
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I give my little contribute on the matter detailing what is the standard assumed in the North of Italy (at least as far as I know)
Not allowed to be considered on-sight
- pre clipped carabiners
- down climbing
- already put carabiners (if avoidable)
- tips from people knowing the route
Allowed
- tips from your belayer, if he/she does not know the ruote.
- already put carabiners (if strictly not avoidable ! like on hard steep routes)
- grab the chain
remarks
- chalked holds help a lot, OS is easier in crowded crags, much harder in lonely places or trad
but above all stand personal ethics and responsability ! don't trick yourself !
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2004-11-04 07:20:11 |
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Wow! massimo, how did you get your hair to stand up like that? Is your girlfriend British?
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2004-11-11 05:29:43 |
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Hello people, though im not a on-sighter. I am wondering why down-climbing during an on-sight attempt while the climber is climbing on the wall doesnt count as a legitimate attempt. Down-climbing as in not in a way that the climber is possible to untie shoelace but as to a resting position,still hanging, which is part of the route and not to the start of the route. Is this not widely practice?
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2004-11-11 12:26:50 |
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For me free climbing and especially on-sighting is a simulation of climbing a rock using nothing but the rock itself. That makes grabbing the chain unacceptable and I'm glad most climbers agree to that (I am amazed that the 'ethical' Brits give Raindogs 8a by grabbing chain and not 8a+ or whatever, by not). A little downclimbing to a (good or bad) rest point is common practive (and, when this is done many times on the same attempt gives a good explanation why OS is much more painful than RP). However, downclimbing from the 5th bolt to the ground in order to fully recover sounds at least unstylish to me, if not a cheat. A problem is to set an explicit rule on this matter, e.g. no downclimbing past the 2nd bolt?... This is a similar problem like the number of allowed preclipped biners on RP (In OS I don't consider this allowable at all, since presupposes someone else climbs the rock; it's similar as to get info by another's attempt)
Chalked holds is necessary evil... If you like otherwise, come to Greece (except for Kalymnos of course :-)
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2004-11-12 00:55:40 |
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Preclipping the 2nd bolt does not presuppose that somebody else has climbed the rock, Mr Thanoupolos is apparently unfamiliar with the wonderful American invention, the stick clip...
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2007-06-16 07:36:39 |
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Agreed, all clipping is from the rock only, preclipping is only for safety, no more than the first bolt (i think, we'll see when i get to an unsafe 2nd clip that's difficult), but beyond chalk on the holds, what about the massive amounts of media out there, if you see a pic in a climbing mag does that invalidate an onsight? and guidebooks! i know many that tell you where the crux is--is that avoidable, do you have to tell your partner to read the book for you because you're trying to onsight? what about routes that become common knowledge, could anyone really say they've onsighted midnight lightning when everyone knows there's a comitting mantle at the top (you could say that you could see the mantle from the ground, but there's plenty of routes like this). so what about the guidebook thing, on trad routes it's only safe to know where you're going, and often unavoidable (supertopos) to see where the cruxes are, are these guides onsight prohibitive???
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2007-06-17 18:23:44 |
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in göteborg there is a route with a lots of crimpers. they could maybe be hard to see. and there where tick mark on almost every hold. should those who did it, not clean it?
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2008-07-20 12:11:55 |
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Not to say the New Mexico practices the most exacting form of onsight, but at our last comp, the judges chose to use the rules of onsight that are commonly accepted by most climbers I know. I should mention, I am referring to bouldering, as far as routes go, I would need to climb more routes above 5.12 to really get a feel for my own opinions, and others. But, with the comp being in a gym, nobody really had the opportunity to get a ton of beta, because the only people there were not able to climb the comp problems. We were allowed to look as much as we wanted, but touching was off, and it was a burn if your feet touched ground after leaving it. Onsight credit was also a consensus thing, as one of the problems was placed too close to the end of another of the same tape color, and dynoing to the other problems end happened mutliple times, but the consensus said that since it was harder than the initial problem, that it should be counted, sorry ranting. But all in all, I find tick marks to not be that helpful, because around here, people are very liberal with playing baseball with chalk socks, and often the best holds on the problem remain unmarked, and the tick marks actually tend to cause problems for many of the climbers trying them. Although, a real question is, if you are onsighting an FA, should you really trust your own judgement, I know that when I onsight something in a fit of adrenalin, it feels much easier than when I try it again later. For this reason, I think onsights need previous ascents, lest you end up down playing your own skill.
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